Fucking All-Season Tires

"Desu-San-Desu" (Desu-San-Desu) 01/21/2016 at 14:17 • Filed to: None

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Every time it ices and snows, I can’t leave my house.

Oh wait...that’s right. I’m not a pannicky alarmist dipshit who thinks that ice and snow are terrifying boogeymen if you don’t have giant snow tires with spikes in them. I actually took some time to learn how to drive in the stuff.

450X_FTW > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:22

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I’m really surprised they don’t require people to take a driving test in the snow, at least for states that get snow.

Eberle-Hills-Cop > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:23

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Okay, you did. Now go try to teach my girlfriend or mother or father or sister etc etc.

atrombs > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:24

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Looks fun. That’s what I’m hoping to be doing tomorrow.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:24

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Our Wrangler is immensely fun in the snow. It’s on nearly bald all-seasons, and only 40% of the torque goes to the front so you can still drift it in 4WD.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:25

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I can’t star this enough

Desu-San-Desu > 450X_FTW 01/21/2016 at 14:26

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We get snow one or two days out of the year. And you know what? When it’s just snow, everything here in S.C. is fine. Just fine.

What the news reports fail to mention is that 90% of the time, we get freezing rain in the afternoon, which freezes solid after the sun goes down before turning to snow. So you wind up with an inch or two of snow on top of an inch of solid ice. In the picture at the top of my post? That’s not snow. That’s an inch of solid ice that I was driving on. It was so dense that it barely even left tire tracks. And I got around just fine. With $50 chinese all-seasons.

Even in the videos, I’m driving through a slurry of ice and snow.

Lack of winter tires is no excuse for being a horrible driver, lol.

Textured Soy Protein > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:27

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S ome all-season tires are definitely shite in the snow. Others can be alright. Sure snow tires are going to be better but there are all-seasons that can at least be competent in winter weather.

My biggest beef with all-season tires is when car manufacturers spec an all-season tire that does suck in winter on a vehicle like an SUV or crossover where being good in winter is supposed to be one of its selling points, but it’s only actually good in winter if you get rid of the terrible-in-winter factory tires.

Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:30

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I’ve only ever had two experiences with snow. Once it was with my friend’s CRV, and I was approaching a stop sign before a larger street and I didn’t even plan on stopping until the last minute. When I did stop at the stop sign to turn right, it didn’t stop and the car didn’t turn right, just slid forward.

NEVER DID THAT AGAIN.

Desu-San-Desu > Textured Soy Protein 01/21/2016 at 14:30

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Funny bit, my Mini has UHP All-Seasons. I know they’re not designed to do more than just get you home in an inch or so of snow. I knew that when I bought them and I’m okay with it, because I don’t really plan on driving the Mini around in the snow. The main reason I got them was to have excellent wet and dry performance while still having decent treadware.

The Audi, on the other hand, has some bottom-shelf Sailun all-seasons that are shockingly good in the snow. It probably helps that they’re 195's vs the 215's on the Mini.

Desu-San-Desu > Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna 01/21/2016 at 14:32

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Er...so....your fault, then...aye? You sort of need to plan for turns and stops in advance in the snow and ice. Stopping at the last minute and not prepping for understeer is sort of the exact opposite of what you’re supposed to do. :-P

BKosher84 > 450X_FTW 01/21/2016 at 14:34

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I still believe everyone from the age of 16 to death should have to take a drivers test (full blown written/driving portion) every 5-7 years.

jjhats > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:35

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my beef with all seasons stems from the fact that when manufacturers sell a car with summers new from the factory people flip out and die in their stubbornness to not buy new rubber on a new car. this forces car manufacturers to put shitty all seasons on and get shitty reviews because of it. look at the FRS. performance cars should come with summers and companies shouldn’t care how dumb the general public is

450X_FTW > BKosher84 01/21/2016 at 14:35

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Every time you renew your license, should have to retake it.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Textured Soy Protein 01/21/2016 at 14:36

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Yup, it all depends on the all-season tire you have to begin with and how much tread is one there. I’ve gotten through winters on all-seasons, but those were at least decent tires. The all-seasons I have now are awful and are pretty shitty on anything other than dry pavement, which it’s not even that good at gripping, either. Luckily, 14" tires are cheap so I love the Blizzaks I’ve got on my car now.

Desu-San-Desu > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 01/21/2016 at 14:36

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That does sound like fun!

Also, do you live in upstate South Carolina? Last year I used the Audi to pull 2 different Wranglers (and 4 4X4 pickup trucks) out of various ditches. The excuses that were made were hilarious. XD

Desu-San-Desu > Eberle-Hills-Cop 01/21/2016 at 14:36

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That’s on them. I taught myself, they can stop being lazy and do the same.

BKosher84 > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:37

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I drove a 2008 Clubman with Conti DWS HP All Seasons in the worst winter I have ever experienced last year and I did just fine.. It’s not the fact that you MUST HAVE WINTER TIRES TO SURVIVE, it’s that I know how to drive correctly in the snow/ice.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:39

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I’d like to powerslide an audi one day... Subaru tends to oversteer really bad when you hang it out there, kinda hard to keep it going. It’s either under stear push or spin.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:39

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Nope. Martha’s Vineyard.

Textured Soy Protein > gin-san - shitpost specialist 01/21/2016 at 14:42

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I will say though, I’m very much on the winter tire bandwagon. I ran snows on the Miata I had from 2004-2008, and the Mazdaspeed 6 I had from 2008-2013.

The closest I came to “just getting by” with all-seasons was winter 2013-14 when I had regular Uniroyal Laredo all-seasons that came on my beater ’99 Grand Cherokee I had that winter, but those are actually pretty solid in winter, and they were on a full-time 4wd Jeep.

I replaced that Jeep with an ’05 Grand Cherokee that’s too nice to call a beater. It’s got the optional Quadra-Drive II 4wd system where all 3 diffs are eLSDs, and I put General Grabber AT2s on it which are all-terrains certified for severe severe snow duty. So not technically a winter tire, but winter-inclined.

Desu-San-Desu > BKosher84 01/21/2016 at 14:45

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Worst winter I ever experienced was in Erie, PA when I was driving my ‘97 Saturn SC2- again, on all-seasons. It was also my first time driving in snow. White-out conditions, 8 inches in 5 hours, etc. etc.

The drive home was white-knuckle, not because of traction, but because of visibility. Once I got home, I parked the car, went to bed, got up the next morning and looked outside. Nearly a foot of snow. The very next thing I did? Threw a come-along in the trunk, found a nearby empty parking lot, and practiced. I practiced stopping. I practiced turning. I practiced starting from a stop and doing the same on an incline. I practiced spinning and recovering from a spin.

I spent an afternoon with the radio blaring, fucking about in a snowy parking lot, and learning how to drive in the snow without 4WD or winter tires. And you know what? I had a blast. Some of the best self-education I’ve ever experienced.

There really is no excuse for being transportationally crippled just because you get a couple inches of snow. Deep snow? That’s a different matter, obviously, but for anything under about 6"? Just get out there and put forth some effort to educate yourself and better your own skills as a driver.

Eberle-Hills-Cop > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:48

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You and I both know that’s a pie in the sky possibility. The point is, maybe you and I don’t NEED them because we enjoy cars and driving (and learning how to) but the majority of the driving populous is safer with the crutch of a winter tire.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:48

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I’ve got to drive a trailer from Pelzer to Lexington tomorrow morning, in a 2WD truck with okayish tires. Yay me.

wiffleballtony > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:59

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Frozen water from the sky. That sounds like witch craft to me.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 14:59

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Quattro master race!

BKosher84 > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 15:00

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This was after we came back from visiting my mother in law in Detroit.. We live in the snowbelt in NE Ohio. Even living in the snowbelt.. Last year was a VERY abnormal snowy year.. From the first snowfall (before winter even started) to the end of winter, Cleveland got 65 inches of snow. I had snow mounds up to my neck around my driveway when it was all over. My wife is barely 5'-0" tall if that helps on how deep that snow is.

This picture was me driving down the interstate on the way to work a week before the above picture of my wife. Yeah, screw snow tires, lol.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 15:10

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I did that once in a K-Mart parking lot, with my girlfriend at the time in the car. It was late at night, only a few employees there and no customers, and we were on the back end of the lot, FAR away from everyone. There were about 8" of snow on the ground.

So as we’re drifting and sliding around we see the cherries light up on a police car pulling out of the stations and heading up the road in our direction. We joke about it for a bit, that he’s coming to get me for hooning or something, as we watch this Crown Vic slip and slide in the snow. Finally it stops out on the main road and just sits there, lights on. We’re only half paying attention to it, still drifting around. Next thing I know there’s a cop in the parking lot waving his arms and yelling at me to knock it off. I roll down my window, apologize to him, and drive off, noting his tracks in the snow where he had to walk from his stuck car to come yell at me.

Desu-San-Desu > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 01/21/2016 at 15:18

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You...may be disappointed. I have a 1991 B3-chassis 5-cylinder 80 quattro, which is incredibly nose heavy due to the fact that the entire engine is placed ahead of the front axle. They understeer so badly in slippery conditions that you have to actively make a conscious effort to induce oversteer any time you want to turn while moving. And if you’re moving at a decent clip, you need to already be facing the corner exit before you reach the apex.

Scandinavian flicks, throttle-lifts, left-foot braking, clutch-dumping, the handbrake, these are all things that you HAVE to do in an old Quattro. Not because they’re fancy rally moves, but because those things are a necessity if you want to be able to traverse anywhere that isn’t a straight line at more than a crawl.

Alongside the nose-heavy weight distribution, there is also the fact that the AWD system is biased towards the gripping tires. If a tire slips, the system redirects power to the wheels that aren’t slipping. This is awesome for straight-line traction, but makes power oversteer difficult, as the system will constantly send all of your power to the front tires, which interrupts the powerslide. The trick is to feather the throttle from 20% - 90% with as little time spent in the middle of the power band as possible while also feathering the brake with your left foot in order to re-set the AWD bias.

If you need to make a sudden increase in slip angle while already in a slide, you can either use the handbrake (will return mixed results and should be reserved for hairpin turns), or you lift off the throttle completely, press the clutch, give the brake pedal a very quick, forceful tap, then rev the throttle to about 70-80% and dump the clutch before flooring it. While not good for your clutch, this will dig the nose of the car in, make the front axle act as a pivot point. The system will read the throttle input, being too simple to factor in steering angle, and will anticipate an aggressive launch from a stop, thus redirecting more power to the rear wheels, which are still unloaded and will spin, increasing oversteer angle until the system catches up and redirects power. And you have to do all of this in the space of one second.

So instead of doing one long, constant powerslide, you end up doing this weird series of burnouts while trying to maintain momentum and slip angle. Hooning sideways in an old Audi is basically a constant battle between you and the AWD system arguing about what the car is supposed to be doing, lol.

Desu-San-Desu > Eberle-Hills-Cop 01/21/2016 at 15:23

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In that case,

“Darwin, take the wheel!”

Desu-San-Desu > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 01/21/2016 at 15:24

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Eh, you’re mostly out of foothills at the point and heading to the midlands, so you should be fine. :-)

Desu-San-Desu > jjhats 01/21/2016 at 15:29

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Eh, while I agree with the gist of what you’re saying, the FR-S is a bad example. The Prius tires on the FR-S were used to

1) Help with EPA fuel testing. They are also cheap to run, cheap-ish to replace, and have long tread life. This is the “official” reasoning.

2) They are perfect training wheels for aspiring oversteer-aficionados. You can drift the car at 30mph and not worry about totalling the car if you bump a curb or have the nagging realization that you’re roasting hundreds of dollars of rubber. The idea is that you learn how to slide the car on cheap tires at low speeds to learn the basics before upgrading to better tires. This is the ‘actual’ reasoning.

Desu-San-Desu > atrombs 01/21/2016 at 15:34

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It’s very unlikely I’ll be doing it this year. Getting the Audi out of the garage after I spent 30 minutes into the garage is just not worth it for one day, especially when it needs repairs. The Mini will get me to and from, but I doubt I’ll be attempting much hooning in it.

ceanderson920 > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 15:37

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That sounds like a typical snow storm in South Dakota, but it rains all morning then around noon it drops to about 15 and snows for the rest of the day. At night the temp drops to -5 for about a week.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 15:40

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The parking lot the trailer is in was partially frozen this morning, so getting it out should be fun.

Desu-San-Desu > ceanderson920 01/21/2016 at 15:41

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That’s about what we’re expecting for Saturday. Not enough reason for me to pull the Audi out of the garage, really.

Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 15:43

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I’m from California HAHAHA. Land of drive as fast as everyone until you see a cop and you can only lose traction in a puddle when it never rains. So while I drive safely, everything else is more of a Driving “Suggestion” But yeah after that time, I plan for things a lot earlier in the snow.

jjhats > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 15:53

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I fully believe point 1.

I refuse to ever acknowledge Toyota wanted the car to drift so they fitted shitty tires. that is the laziest most convenient excuse for Toyota royally botching the tire choice. what were they thinking? ALL performance cars should come with summers

Eberle-Hills-Cop > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 16:02

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Problem is, darwin takes the wheel right into the retaining wall infront of my house on the reg.

Desu-San-Desu > jjhats 01/21/2016 at 16:07

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The FR-S was never intended to be a performance car while stock. Neither was the AE86. The intention of the car, and you can read this in various interviews during the production of the car, was for it to be a cheap ‘blank slate’, like the AE86 was. An affordable car that has all the necessary groundwork laid for it to be a very good performer with some aftermarket loving. Akio knew what people were going to use the car for and do with it and he rolled with that. What’s the point of slapping expensive tires on the car when people are just going to swap wheels and tires within a year anyway?

Desu-San-Desu > Eberle-Hills-Cop 01/21/2016 at 16:09

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He does work in mysterious ways, that Darwin...

jjhats > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 16:20

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so you first tried to tell me it was done so it could be a drift car. now your telling me its cuz its a blank slate and would get upgraded anyways. which is it? the fact of the matter is if they put eagle F1 or PSS on it to start owners wouldn’t need to upgrade the tires. they did it cuz they are cheap and dumb. no other reasons are applicable or true until you give me a source from a Toyota exec

jkm7680 > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 01/21/2016 at 16:21

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Someday we shall take over the world.

Desu-San-Desu > jjhats 01/21/2016 at 16:30

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*sigh*

Educating you is not worth the effort. Google is there. Use it.

jjhats > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 16:35

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all I found was that the lead designer had 3 requirements, NA, RWD, and prius tires. whether or not he intended the tires to make it fun idk how sliding around and not being able to stick a good line at a track is any fun....I think it was purely cost cutting and parts bin farming

Desu-San-Desu > jjhats 01/21/2016 at 16:42

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I have to go to work. I can reply more in full when I get home tonight.

Chasaboo > wiffleballtony 01/21/2016 at 19:21

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Heck yeah, in LA never seen such a thing. Well, maybe off in the distance on the mountains, and in my mojitos.

Iheartmy365kHonda - Car enthusiasts do like FWD > Desu-San-Desu 01/21/2016 at 21:49

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I’ve figured out how to drive on my all-seasons. I was going to purchase some winters, but something else came up that is a bit of a surprise at the moment.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > Desu-San-Desu 01/22/2016 at 16:21

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Does the 80 come with manual diff lock? My S6 does, makes it a blast to drive.

Desu-San-Desu > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper 01/22/2016 at 16:25

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Yeah, the rear diff is manually lockable, but is limited to 15mph or less in order to protect the diff and keep it from overheating or binding up. It’s mostly for getting unstuck and powering through deep snow or mud.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > Desu-San-Desu 01/22/2016 at 16:31

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Im aware, If you cut the white wire with the blue stripe that goes into the controller (it sits under the back seat, at least in Urs4/s6s), you can use the diff lock at straight line speeds more than 15 mph, because the controller will not receive the speed-related disengage signal from the ECU.

Desu-San-Desu > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper 01/22/2016 at 16:36

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The car is fun enough without the diff locked that I’m not willing to risk the longevity of the differential by modding the wiring, lol.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > Desu-San-Desu 01/22/2016 at 16:47

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Lol I hear ya, I have a spare diff in storage for “rainy days” Overall these cars are a blast, drive by wire with a torsen center diff. cant go wrong with that.

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Desu-San-Desu > ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper 01/22/2016 at 16:52

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Oh trust me, I plan on having mine back on the road and all set for conquering the white stuff in time for next winter. After all, I have a reputation to live up to: